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#809031 - 06/21/08 02:35 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: sobo]
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sprayer
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 7508
TRs: 3
Photos: 69
Loc: The Oklahoma Dustbowl of WA
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All right, I couldn't stand it. Here's a thread from a few years ago with some creative ways to beat/fight the ticket (John Frieh's is especially creative). That thread links to an even older thread about this shit fee demo program. Wade through all the shit in both threads. You'll have time to do so before you get your "friendly reminder" in the mail. This pic from mtnnut's post is classic! PS: Scott Silvers' website is wildwilderness.orgCheck out this link.
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"You have to know these things when you're a king, you know." ---Arthur, King of the Britons
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#809034 - 06/21/08 03:25 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: sobo]
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addicted to cc.com
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 478
TRs: 0
Photos: 12
Loc: PNW
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I've gotten warnings before, but I DID contest every one. Be PROACTIVE in your dissent. I wrote a standard complaint/not gonna pay it letter, based off the verbiage from Scott Silvers website (some here may call him a crack, but I'm with him on this BULLSHIT "demonstration" fee program. You could do a search on this site with Fee Demo in the title and use "newer than 7 years" as the timeframe. I'd do it for you and send you the link, but I'm crashing on a deadline for work this weekend. I take it you never paid or appeared in court? I had an unpaid parking ticket end up on my DMV record. I couldn't renew my registration until I paid the ticket. I wonder what tools the Fee Demo folks have to force the money from your pocket...
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Evil squirrels are after my nuts
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#809037 - 06/21/08 03:31 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: Mikester]
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sprayer
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 7508
TRs: 3
Photos: 69
Loc: The Oklahoma Dustbowl of WA
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Nope, never paid (haven't actually been ticketed yet), but I write them back on every warning. I seem to get a lot of them. Mebbe they have me "bracketed" and will send in black helicopters on my next "infraction." I've had unpaid parking tickets (by an ex-GF using my car) keep me from getting a home loan. Her $15 ticket in my truck turned into a $130 settlement to get my loan approved.  Goddman bitch, knew there was a reason I dumped her... AFAIK, I think they can only try to take you to court over the Fee "Demo" (bullshit!) thing. But ask ivan. I think he really got raked over the coals for his ticket a coupla years ago. ivan- that was you, wasn't it?
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"You have to know these things when you're a king, you know." ---Arthur, King of the Britons
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#809104 - 06/22/08 10:19 AM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: sobo]
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sprayer
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 5616
TRs: 45
Photos: 343
Loc: Oceania
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AFAIK, I think they can only try to take you to court over the Fee "Demo" (bullshit!) thing. But ask ivan. I think he really got raked over the coals for his ticket a coupla years ago.
ivan- that was you, wasn't it?
yes, they took my to court over it, though i don't know if it was the worst "raking" imaginable - basically i just bought the pass before i showed up, gave it to the prosecutor, and he sent me home - i did miss a full day of work over it though, but that was mostly spent in a park drinking  now i practice guerilla terrorism and dismantle/destroy every sign i think i can get away w/ - gives you a reason to carry a saw and wrenches 
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Ignorance is Strength War is Peace Freedom is Slavery
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#809536 - 06/23/08 09:47 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: 111]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/23/01
Posts: 223
TRs: 3
Photos: 20
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'll back that up. It's not a "Fee Demo" anymore. Any tickets issued during the fee demo were mostly tickets that could not be enforced (they were demonstration tickets).
Now that the Forest Pass is no longer a demo, it's law, the tickets are enforceable and the state/feds can come after you for not paying.
It sucks, though a pass is not required at all trailheads. Basically for the pass to be required, it needs to be an improved trailhead. This means that if it has an outhouse, it's improved and a pass is required:
FEDERAL LANDS RECREATION ENHANCEMENT ACT SEC. 3. RECREATION FEE AUTHORITY f) Standard Amenity Recreation Fee.--Except as limited by subsection (d), the Secretary may charge a standard amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, or the Forest Service, but only at the following: (4) An area-- (D) that contains ALL of the following amenities: (i) Designated developed parking. (ii) A permanent toilet facility. (iii) A permanent trash receptacle. (iv) Interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk. (v) Picnic tables. (vi) Security services.
Keep writing your congress people and tell them you want them to get rid of the Recreation Access Tax (RAT).
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#809608 - 06/23/08 10:52 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: Tod]
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spray'prentice
Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 3024
TRs: 11
Photos: 47
Loc: Seattle, WA
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FEDERAL LANDS RECREATION ENHANCEMENT ACT SEC. 3. RECREATION FEE AUTHORITY f) Standard Amenity Recreation Fee.--Except as limited by subsection (d), the Secretary may charge a standard amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, or the Forest Service, but only at the following: (4) An area-- (D) that contains ALL of the following amenities: (i) Designated developed parking. (ii) A permanent toilet facility. (iii) A permanent trash receptacle. (iv) Interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk. (v) Picnic tables. (vi) Security services.
I don't believe the stuart lake TH has picnic tables, does it?
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American Hero
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#809678 - 06/24/08 09:20 AM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: ken4ord]
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enthusiast
Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 293
TRs: 7
Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
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I have not paid a ticket yet. The first four I got I ignored, but I kept getting the letters. Last letter was five years ago. My solution was to grab an old set of plates off a junk car (not in my name). Whenever I pull into a parking lot I swap plates real quick, I lock the car and cover the VIN number. So far the 15 some odd tickets I've gotten have never been traced back to me.
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NSBDS
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#809723 - 06/24/08 10:40 AM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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sprayer
Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 9649
TRs: 15
Photos: 87
Loc: Above Treeline
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Gosh, that is so much easier than just paying $30 a year!
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What don't kill you make you more strong
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#809731 - 06/24/08 10:53 AM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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veteran
Registered: 08/31/01
Posts: 1477
TRs: 0
Photos: 46
Loc: the dark side
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I have not paid a ticket yet. The first four I got I ignored, but I kept getting the letters. Last letter was five years ago. My solution was to grab an old set of plates off a junk car (not in my name). Whenever I pull into a parking lot I swap plates real quick, I lock the car and cover the VIN number. So far the 15 some odd tickets I've gotten have never been traced back to me. You're an example to us all.
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#809792 - 06/24/08 01:23 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: lizard_brain]
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enthusiast
Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 293
TRs: 7
Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
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Lets be clear about the plates. They were not ripped off some car at random. I bought a parts car from a guy in Leavenworth, hauled it over the pass. I never got a title for the parts car. It had plates on it and that's what I use. When I was done with the car I used a Sawsall to turn it into scrap metal and took it to a metal recycler. I lived in CO for years. They would shoot people if they tried to pass a similar program in CO. The rangers in CO think we are crazy to put up with this program. If this were valid at all Nat. Forests I'd gladly particapate. But it is not. So many people here in the Pacific North West do not understand that in other states NO ONE pays for access to PUBLIC lands. Only us dumb lemmings in WA and OR have to do that.
Edited by mr.radon (06/24/08 01:23 PM)
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NSBDS
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#809805 - 06/24/08 01:37 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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sprayer
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 7508
TRs: 3
Photos: 69
Loc: The Oklahoma Dustbowl of WA
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From my linked thread above from 2004: OK, I'll admit it, I'm cornfoozed...
I thought that this past March/April, the Access Fund, along with other supporters, won the "repeal" of the NW Forest Pass on FS lands (only?) thru Congressional petitioning. Is that not correct? Beginning in October, the NWFP is kaput on FS lands?
I know that doesn't help those now being ticketed, but isn't this crock of shit circling the drain?
My own personal view: I bought a pass the very first year it came out, thinking the logic of what was being said about the pass was true. I later tuned in to various websites and heard conservationist lectures that caused me to change my opinion. I never bought another one after the first year. And I drive around with that original pass still in the window, just to piss 'em off/make a statement.
I've never been ticketed, but have gotten warnings on at least two occasions, maybe three. I wrote letters, based largely in part on material culled from Scott Silver's site, to the FS and flatly stated I refused to pay, citing the myriad of reasons provided on Scott's site. I have never heard from the FS since, and this was at least two or three years ago.
Granted I didn't usually go to oft-trammelled THs, and even less so now that I'm a daddy to a two-year-old. But from what I've seen at the THs where I do go, my money hasn't ended up there.
PS: I do pay the $5/day parking fee at State Parks (like at Peshastin Pinnacles, say), because I can actually see what my money has bought (working toilet complete with TP, irrigated lawn, picnic tables, gravel parking lot, etc.). I thought this shit got repealed (on NFS lands) a few years ago?
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"You have to know these things when you're a king, you know." ---Arthur, King of the Britons
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#809848 - 06/24/08 02:53 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: sobo]
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enthusiast
Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 293
TRs: 7
Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
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No, but it was made perminent. It is no longer a demo program. However, only the national forests in the PNW are required to pay. We are lemmings.
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NSBDS
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#809851 - 06/24/08 03:01 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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enthusiast
Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 293
TRs: 7
Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
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Here is the web site to go to for more protest the NWF Pass http://www.freeourforests.org/I can't believe anyone on this site buy's these passes. More people need to know that these passes are only for Or and WA. All other states access to national forests is FREE. Only in WA and OR do we have to pay. Please write and call your senators and Representatives to complain.
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NSBDS
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#809938 - 06/24/08 08:08 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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stranger
Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 15
TRs: 0
Photos: 1
Loc: Seattle
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It is $30 for a year. I've spent this a hundred times buying a round of shots or a case of beer. Small price to pay to support something that we all love--access to the outdoors. If you are in Washington State, you don't even pay income tax (assuming you have income), most everyone else does. Every year when I buy my pass, I consider it a donation to support the trails and trailheads I use--just like the Access Fund or the Northwest Avalanche Center. All of this stuff cost money to maintain. I'll bet if you volunteer for a day clearing trails, you could negotiate next year's pass.
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#809953 - 06/24/08 09:30 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: Cornfed]
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sprayer
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 7508
TRs: 3
Photos: 69
Loc: The Oklahoma Dustbowl of WA
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You've missed the point, Cornfed. Thirty dollars per annum isn't going to set me back very far, either. I also support AF and I've been volunteering in Mountain Rescue for more than 5 years now. The issue is not how much it costs, but rather the fact that it costs anything in the first place. The fee is another tax, one which I already pay every year when I file my IRS 1040.
The fact that you believe your "donation" goes to support trails and stuff is just more government disinformation. The trailheads where I've seen the signs and gotten warnings don't even have any "amenities" for which I would have ostensibly paid, were I to allow myself to be swindled out of my $30.
Your money goes to support timber sales wherein the government sells the timber below market value. It also goes to support actions/policies/regulations designed to benefit groups/organizations the likes of which I do not support. It goes for enforcement of a misguided program that isn't needed in the first place. Lastly, it was a program that was never commentd upon by teh users - that's you and me. It was attached as a rider to an omnibus spending bill years ago, and by virtue of its fraudulent perpetuation, it became a law. And it's a discriminatory one at that. So in my mind, it's more than "just $30 a year." It's a principle.
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"You have to know these things when you're a king, you know." ---Arthur, King of the Britons
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#809975 - 06/24/08 10:27 PM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: mr.radon]
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Elite Sprayforce Team
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 13026
TRs: 43
Photos: 116
Loc: Laguna Beach, Cal-ee-fon-ia
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Here is the web site to go to for more protest the NWF Pass http://www.freeourforests.org/I can't believe anyone on this site buy's these passes. More people need to know that these passes are only for Or and WA. All other states access to national forests is FREE. Only in WA and OR do we have to pay. Please write and call your senators and Representatives to complain. You are wrong about that. California has a similar program by a different name.
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There comes a time when a man must grab the bull by the tail and face the situation. -WC Fields
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#810045 - 06/25/08 07:04 AM
Re: Northwest Forest Pass violation
[Re: Cornfed]
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enthusiast
Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 293
TRs: 7
Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
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It is $30 for a year. I've spent this a hundred times buying a round of shots or a case of beer. Small price to pay to support something that we all love--access to the outdoors. If you are in Washington State, you don't even pay income tax (assuming you have income), most everyone else does. Every year when I buy my pass, I consider it a donation to support the trails and trailheads I use--just like the Access Fund or the Northwest Avalanche Center. All of this stuff cost money to maintain. I'll bet if you volunteer for a day clearing trails, you could negotiate next year's pass. That's insain. In CO I paid income and sales tax but as a percentage of my income it was far less then WA. At least in WA I can go to OR an buy big ticket items and get out of the sales tax. Right now my monthly tax on my house is more then my payment. It used to be $243/month, now $564/month. Also, because of Brightwater I pay $65/month sewer. Bu that is not the point. The point is the FEE program is UNAmerican. What is to prevent them from increasing this to $100/year? Nothing.
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NSBDS
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